I suppose from a global public opinion standpoint, the raw number of Jews and non-Jews matters. But you've said yourself that a fraction of the Israeli population is holding the state together. Any sense on how the demographics are evolving among that set?
"Narrow victory..."? During the last thirty years the main argument against a self-assured, forceful, optimist Israel was that we Jews are a minuscule ethnia in Eretz Israel in process of being overwhelmed by the surrounding peoples. This defeatist weltanschauung has paralized Israel and has brought us to the difficult situation we are in Yehuda and Samaria. So now that it is becoming apparent that the tide has turned and we have a future, it not small or narrow victory. It is a great victory of historic proportions. At least, Asrak, that is how I see it, from my tower in the middle of this steaming staedttele I call Kever Benjamin. Anyway, I appreciate the detached, emotionless tone of your note, written probably from the vantage point of the serene beauty of a cool fjord.
To Anonymous: How is demography evolving in the Ashkenazi set? Aslak could provide a better answer, but my impressionistic estimate is that we are doing as the rest of the Jewish population, and them, we are fast dissolving as a visibly separate set.
Most ultra orthodox are ashkenazi (there are about 800,000 of them in israel, 600,000 from it are ashkenazim) , they have average of 8 kids to a women , and mixed marriage with spharadi/mizrahi are rare (about 2% . An ashkenazi will get a spharadic Shiduch (match) only if something "wrong" with him - e.g : low iq, mental problems, had a discipline problems in the yeshiva , been a lousy studier in yeshiva , had an history of neglecting religion, or used to be secular) So , it's true that pure ashkenazi are getting extinct in the secular population, but secular Jews only have average of 2 kids to a women, so they are getting extinct in general. My point is that Israel is a very difficult challenge to analyze it's demographic direction, because it's so diverse and nothing is static. Sorry for my lousy English.
My impression (and we are talking about impressions as hard sttistics are hard to come by) is that Ashkenazi and Sepharadi mixing in the Haredi sector is much, much more than 2%. I would say about 25% and tha means that in two generations everyone would be a bit of this and a bit of that.
Secular Jews are not getting extinct, far from it. Their proportion is falling, but look at the kibbutzim, there are maintaining their numbers. In the end, this society is getting homogeneized very fast. I am sure we will not recognize Israel in twenty years from now.
The Palestinians dont know what they are up against. I pity them.
Hi J I think you are being very naive . The only haredi group that mix is maybe Chabad. In the rest of the haredi sector marriage between spharadi and ashkenazi is almost a taboo . The shiduch system keeps it that way because ashkenazi families specifically and openly (liberal PC is not part of their culture) ask for an Ashkenazi match . Spharadim also ask for an ashkenazi shiduch but they rarely gets one, and it usually of "type b" . You have to remember that the haredim are not zionists, so they desire to maintain the exact life as it were in the exile of eastern Europe . In their ultra conservative perspectives even the smallest change of costumes, is a big deal and should be avoid. e.g It used to be a taboo for a Hasidic marring a "mitnaged"/"litayi" only lately it started to change. Also, again, PC culture don't apply to them, they are very realist and open about deferents between groups then the zionist . I still believe 2%-5% mixing is the right figure.
I am not naive, but I admit the possibility that I am not up to date. I happen to know several, many cases of good looking tall Morrocan yeshive boys with Ashkenazi shidduchim. You have the Raanana Chief Rabbi for example. Also vice versa, I also know many Ashkenazim with Teymania and so on wives. Maybe in the new generation it is different. I stopped going to chatunot years ago.
I am not naive, but I admit the possibility that I am not up to date. I happen to know several, many cases of good looking tall Morrocan yeshive boys with Ashkenazi shidduchim. You have the Raanana Chief Rabbi for example. Also vice versa, I also know many Ashkenazim with Teymania and so on wives. Maybe in the new generation it is different. I stopped going to chatunot years ago.
BTW I dont think the Haredim are aware or more open about ethnic differences. On the contrary, each time I talk with my relatives about these things I want to vomit, they are so ignorant of human biology and genetics, and so full of superstition. They actually give more credit to what some imbecile ignoramus said a thousand years ago than modern medicine or genetics. Katuv Ba Torah - like how Yakov caused Laban's sheep to give birth only to white sheep.
Many Haredim are in fact shtookim, born from sperm donation with imported goy sperm. That's why sometimes you stop on your tracks and ask yourself, my God, from where did appear such a goy-looking shit-head Ashkenazi haredi? In my times there were no specimens like that.
Just curious, can the guys who are dressed for Poland and Lithuania leave their air conditioners running automatically by thermostat on the sabbath when they live in Israel?
Most are too poor for those luxuries. Oh boy, you lucky Americans think that an air condition is a given, how could anyone live without air conditioner?
1. J, before AC most Americans lived in the northern half of the country. Migration to the southern half wasn't desireable until the introduction of indoor refrigeration. I don't understand why Israel is so poor relative to the United States though. Realistically, with so many smart people Israel should be at least equal.
2. J said...
Many Haredim are in fact shtookim, born from sperm donation with imported goy sperm.
WTF?
I had to google haredim to realize that you probably meant utlra-orthodox Jews. You've probaby used the term a thousand times, but still.
In the process of googling Haredim I found their wiki article and found this gem at the top:
A study in late 2006 claimed that just over a third of Israelis considered Haredim the most hated group in Israel.
1. We have been in war all these years and still are. War is very costly.
2. WTF? Haredim rabbis have decreed that Jewish sperm cannot be used as it may give raise to forbidden marriages - brother to sister, etc. So they buy goy sperm in the USA. Incredible, is it? But true.
I thought they would marry their cousins if they had a shortage of people to marry, or for a common exchange among the haredim to broaden the mating pool. They must be hard up.
17 comments:
Well, a very narrow victory if you exclude Gaza at least, but I guess that's something. Thank you for the link and I've responded to your comment.
I suppose from a global public opinion standpoint, the raw number of Jews and non-Jews matters. But you've said yourself that a fraction of the Israeli population is holding the state together. Any sense on how the demographics are evolving among that set?
Dear Aslak:
"Narrow victory..."? During the last thirty years the main argument against a self-assured, forceful, optimist Israel was that we Jews are a minuscule ethnia in Eretz Israel in process of being overwhelmed by the surrounding peoples. This defeatist weltanschauung has paralized Israel and has brought us to the difficult situation we are in Yehuda and Samaria. So now that it is becoming apparent that the tide has turned and we have a future, it not small or narrow victory. It is a great victory of historic proportions. At least, Asrak, that is how I see it, from my tower in the middle of this steaming staedttele I call Kever Benjamin. Anyway, I appreciate the detached, emotionless tone of your note, written probably from the vantage point of the serene beauty of a cool fjord.
To Anonymous: How is demography evolving in the Ashkenazi set? Aslak could provide a better answer, but my impressionistic estimate is that we are doing as the rest of the Jewish population, and them, we are fast dissolving as a visibly separate set.
Most ultra orthodox are ashkenazi (there are about 800,000 of them in israel, 600,000 from it are ashkenazim) , they have average of 8 kids to a women , and mixed marriage with spharadi/mizrahi are rare (about 2% . An ashkenazi will get a spharadic Shiduch (match) only if something "wrong" with him - e.g : low iq, mental problems, had a discipline problems in the yeshiva , been a lousy studier in yeshiva , had an history of neglecting religion, or used to be secular)
So , it's true that pure ashkenazi are getting extinct in the secular population, but secular Jews only have average of 2 kids to a women, so they are getting extinct in general.
My point is that Israel is a very difficult challenge to analyze it's demographic direction, because it's so diverse and nothing is static.
Sorry for my lousy English.
eyal,
My impression (and we are talking about impressions as hard sttistics are hard to come by) is that Ashkenazi and Sepharadi mixing in the Haredi sector is much, much more than 2%. I would say about 25% and tha means that in two generations everyone would be a bit of this and a bit of that.
Secular Jews are not getting extinct, far from it. Their proportion is falling, but look at the kibbutzim, there are maintaining their numbers. In the end, this society is getting homogeneized very fast. I am sure we will not recognize Israel in twenty years from now.
The Palestinians dont know what they are up against. I pity them.
Hi J
I think you are being very naive .
The only haredi group that mix is maybe Chabad. In the rest of the haredi sector marriage between spharadi and ashkenazi is almost a taboo . The shiduch system keeps it that way because ashkenazi families specifically and openly (liberal PC is not part of their culture) ask for an Ashkenazi match . Spharadim also ask for an ashkenazi shiduch but they rarely gets one, and it usually of "type b" .
You have to remember that the haredim are not zionists, so they desire to maintain the exact life as it were in the exile of eastern Europe . In their ultra conservative perspectives even the smallest change of costumes, is a big deal and should be avoid.
e.g It used to be a taboo for a Hasidic marring a "mitnaged"/"litayi" only lately it started to change.
Also, again, PC culture don't apply to them, they are very realist and open about deferents between groups then the zionist .
I still believe 2%-5% mixing is the right figure.
I am not naive, but I admit the possibility that I am not up to date. I happen to know several, many cases of good looking tall Morrocan yeshive boys with Ashkenazi shidduchim. You have the Raanana Chief Rabbi for example. Also vice versa, I also know many Ashkenazim with Teymania and so on wives. Maybe in the new generation it is different. I stopped going to chatunot years ago.
I am not naive, but I admit the possibility that I am not up to date. I happen to know several, many cases of good looking tall Morrocan yeshive boys with Ashkenazi shidduchim. You have the Raanana Chief Rabbi for example. Also vice versa, I also know many Ashkenazim with Teymania and so on wives. Maybe in the new generation it is different. I stopped going to chatunot years ago.
BTW I dont think the Haredim are aware or more open about ethnic differences. On the contrary, each time I talk with my relatives about these things I want to vomit, they are so ignorant of human biology and genetics, and so full of superstition. They actually give more credit to what some imbecile ignoramus said a thousand years ago than modern medicine or genetics. Katuv Ba Torah - like how Yakov caused Laban's sheep to give birth only to white sheep.
Many Haredim are in fact shtookim, born from sperm donation with imported goy sperm. That's why sometimes you stop on your tracks and ask yourself, my God, from where did appear such a goy-looking shit-head Ashkenazi haredi? In my times there were no specimens like that.
Just curious, can the guys who are dressed for Poland and Lithuania leave their air conditioners running automatically by thermostat on the sabbath when they live in Israel?
Most are too poor for those luxuries. Oh boy, you lucky Americans think that an air condition is a given, how could anyone live without air conditioner?
But yes, I think they can do that for sabbath.
J, are you referring to the ba'al teshuvah?
1. J, before AC most Americans lived in the northern half of the country. Migration to the southern half wasn't desireable until the introduction of indoor refrigeration. I don't understand why Israel is so poor relative to the United States though. Realistically, with so many smart people Israel should be at least equal.
2. J said...
Many Haredim are in fact shtookim, born from sperm donation with imported goy sperm.
WTF?
I had to google haredim to realize that you probably meant utlra-orthodox Jews. You've probaby used the term a thousand times, but still.
In the process of googling Haredim I found their wiki article and found this gem at the top:
A study in late 2006 claimed that just over a third of Israelis considered Haredim the most hated group in Israel.
1. We have been in war all these years and still are. War is very costly.
2. WTF? Haredim rabbis have decreed that Jewish sperm cannot be used as it may give raise to forbidden marriages - brother to sister, etc. So they buy goy sperm in the USA. Incredible, is it? But true.
1. OK.
2. I take it Jewish sperm is too expensive.
I thought they would marry their cousins if they had a shortage of people to marry, or for a common exchange among the haredim to broaden the mating pool. They must be hard up.
how could anyone live without (an) air conditioner?
Here in AZ evaporative coolers are common on older houses.
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