Abraham from Ur of the Chaldeans. The Manhattan of that time. God tells him: לך לכה - Get yourself going!
He leaves his father's investment bank and starts his own livestock enterprise. He amasses a large fortune in moving stock, has two sons, settles in Hebron, where buys real estate and is buried with his wife Sara in the מערת המפכפלה
A Friend of the Secret Israeli Water Engineer
said...
Oh, J. Your own Israelis, following the example set by the Higher Criticism initiated and perfected by the Germans, have destroyed the crazy Torah myths. You can keep believing all you want, of course, though I know you have a very dry (and appreciated) wit and probably do not in reality think this. As you get older and loopier you might, though.
As a young man in Los Angeles, the Hungarian Jewish landlord of the apartment my future wife and I shared used to come over to spend time with us. He was particularly interested in hearing stories of my future wife's father, who had been a Hungarian physicist. One day he filled us in more on his own story, which I won't go into detail about. He finished it by shaking his head and saying something along the lines of "The Hungarian Jew is the biggest bullshitter in a people of bullshitters."
So come now. Your beloved Palestinians have more claim to "descent" from a mythical Chaldean than you.
Let start to deconstruct your friendly critique from the end. "Mythical Chaldeans"? Should you volunteer for active service in Iraq, you could visit the ruins of the ancient city of Ur and pay a visit to the local Chaldean Christian Community. Well, there are Chaldean communities in Los Angeles too, and they may be less mythical than the Iraqis ones. Regarding Hungarian physicists, I am a bit lost because I met not a few Hungarian bullshit artists, like Tibor Gordon (see below) who was a professional miracle maker, as well as Dr. L., who was in the oil concessions business (till he was found with a bullet hole in his head), as well as my friend the Grand Master Pataki, who was Tachito Somoza's Secret Police's Secret Chief, and so on, but I NEVER heard of a Hungarian Jewish physicist or mathematician bullshitter. I certainly heard of a professor who said he was able to teach anything, mathematics or language, if he had a 20 minute head start on his students, but he was a very talented Hungarian Jew, as we most or all are. Regarding Palestinians you have to come and see by yourself that they are not the original inhabitants of this Holy Land. Except the inhabitants of the Judean mountains (Hebron), among them you find red headed, blue eye people, who tell you that they know they are descendants of Jews but now they are Muslims, the rest of the Palestinians are Beduin tribes from Saudi Arabia, Caucasian Muslims transplanted here by the Turkish Empire, and many recent immigrants from Egypt and Syria who came to enjoy the prosperity created from Jewish (and German sects) economic activity as from 1860 on. Some Arab villages in Galilee still use a few Aramaic words, but they are mixed remnants of the original population. That is the truth. All that doesnt mean that they have no human rights or claims on this land, where they live for generations. You cant send the Beduins back to Transjordan, nor the descendants of African slaves (like in Jisser Al Zarqa) back to Africa.
A Friend of the Secret Israeli Water Engineer
said...
Weird response, J. I'll give you leeway, since English isn't your first language. Chaldeans aren't mythical. That's not what was meant. Abraham, as a figure from myth, is. There may be some euhemeristic aspect to the story, as with Hercules or Odin, but he is mythical.
I relayed the anecdote about my old landlord to make clear that some people think there's a strain of the wiseguy in the Hungarian Jew. I'd hoped that you fell into that category, with tongue planted in cheek as you usually seem to have, rather than being a true believer in what you were saying. Now I'm not so sure.
Regarding your request to come visit, I have, as I've told you before, been there. One night, sitting with old friends in an apartment in Haifa, a friend of theirs told us a story. His cousin was one of the chief archaeologists at Masada, he said, and he'd told him that exaggerated myths such as it were needed to fuse a disparate people. Everyone nodded their head, understanding.
I, personally, don't care about Zionist or Muslim narratives. My point is that "Palestinians" look a lot more like Chaldeans than Hungarian Jews do.
As for all the interesting people you met or know, you're beginning to sound a little like your nemesis, Taki.
Chaldeans aren't mythical. That's not what was meant. Abraham, as a figure from myth, is.
Dear Friend, Since English is your first language, I'll give you no leeway. Abraham, as figure from myth, is...what? mythical? Is that what you meant? Why Abraham as a Bronze age pastoralist, is so improbable? Is his receiving his marching orders from God mythical? Yet I personally know a perfectly real and intelligent person, formerly called Alberto Hugnu (now he has a Hebrew name), who said to me that he made aliyah because he felt/dreamt the "Lech Lecha". There are many things that one half-believes, without ever examining it, and retracting it when meeting social opposition. But here we are, the Jews, three or four thousand years after, and you have to explain us somehow. You cannot have a people without an explanation. Abraham packing his mules and moving to Hebron is a solid explanation, it have survived thousands of years. You say it is a myth necessary for maintaining a coherent people, just like the Puritans founding their New England settlements. If that makes you feel better, more knowledgable and superior to the common run of the people, who am I to say no?
A Friend of the Secret Israeli Water Engineer
said...
"If that makes you feel better, more knowledgable and superior to the common run of the people, who am I to say no?"
Come now, J. Isn't that what Judaism is about? Isn't your belief in backdated stories allowing you to feel the same sense of superiority? Aren't most people's personalities rooted in feeling superior?
The tales of Abraham and Moses were written no earlier than the 8th century BCE, and that's stretching it. Oral traditions are anyone's guess. Many believe, quite simply, that "Die Gestalt Abrahams ist eine mythische Schopfung," as Beltz says. I am in that camp.
From the way current events are presented on your site, it's clear that you'd have made an excellent Torah redactor. Your scientific skills simply aren't applied to the erected "history" of your people. I understand this. I empathize. Luckily, for those of us interested in historicity unburdened by national myth, there are other Hungarian Jews who do care about scholarship in all fields. A collection of leftist bilge forced down my throat in college, "Orientalism", by the Arab Said, led me to Yitzhaq Goldziher, an excellent academic trained in the German tradition whose views more closely parallel those of scholars today. He really was a fascinating man, and noted the Abrahamic story for what it is.
I know you're a busy man. If you ever find you have leisure time, you should read some writings by the proto-Zionist Michael Astour. Or Finkelstein's and Silberman's "The Bible Unearthed", combining archaeology with the best Wellhausenian scrutiny and scholarship. You may stop believing in the literal existence of the original monotheist named Abram who communicated with a vengeful sky god and sired children at 100. I leave that to evangelical Christians.
As an aside, I find it funny that, in Biblical exegesis, the Jahwist source responsible for most of the Genesis story is known, in shorthand, simply as "J".
I am glad neither of us believes in the literal historicity of the Bible or some other Holy Book. I hope you are not studying Gemara and the convoluted, no, ridiculous explanations our sages invented along the centuries to fill in the holes in the Biblical narrative.
By the way, the pictures of the four girls above are from an Egyptian fresco, it is far from proved that they are "Jews". They could not be the "Four MOthers", which in case of existing, could not be painted of the same age together. Egyptians erased all memory of Israel, or maybe they were so few and unimportant that did not merit painting them on the wall.
Somehow, yet, here you have a 10million strong ethnic group, mostly in Israel and the USA, trying to find its place on Earth. As always, there are several opposite movements of what we should do. Before the war you had Agudeh, Bund, Zionists, REvisionists, Communists, etc. Now you have only the Orthodox, and us, the Zionists, who are in total disarray. You have Reform Jews that are fast dissolving. You have Anti Zionists like Israel Shahak and Ilan Pappe, who went over the enemy and will disappear. I put my hope in a strong Israel. What is your program for the Jewish people in the 21st Century?
12 comments:
How do you think the Jews originated?
Abraham from Ur of the Chaldeans. The Manhattan of that time. God tells him: לך לכה - Get yourself going!
He leaves his father's investment bank and starts his own livestock enterprise. He amasses a large fortune in moving stock, has two sons, settles in Hebron, where buys real estate and is buried with his wife Sara in the מערת המפכפלה
Sounds like a good life.
And the Jews? His followers?
Rashkov! What followers? Descendants!
Oh, J. Your own Israelis, following the example set by the Higher Criticism initiated and perfected by the Germans, have destroyed the crazy Torah myths. You can keep believing all you want, of course, though I know you have a very dry (and appreciated) wit and probably do not in reality think this. As you get older and loopier you might, though.
As a young man in Los Angeles, the Hungarian Jewish landlord of the apartment my future wife and I shared used to come over to spend time with us. He was particularly interested in hearing stories of my future wife's father, who had been a Hungarian physicist. One day he filled us in more on his own story, which I won't go into detail about. He finished it by shaking his head and saying something along the lines of "The Hungarian Jew is the biggest bullshitter in a people of bullshitters."
So come now. Your beloved Palestinians have more claim to "descent" from a mythical Chaldean than you.
Let start to deconstruct your friendly critique from the end. "Mythical Chaldeans"? Should you volunteer for active service in Iraq, you could visit the ruins of the ancient city of Ur and pay a visit to the local Chaldean Christian Community. Well, there are Chaldean communities in Los Angeles too, and they may be less mythical than the Iraqis ones. Regarding Hungarian physicists, I am a bit lost because I met not a few Hungarian bullshit artists, like Tibor Gordon (see below) who was a professional miracle maker, as well as Dr. L., who was in the oil concessions business (till he was found with a bullet hole in his head), as well as my friend the Grand Master Pataki, who was Tachito Somoza's Secret Police's Secret Chief, and so on, but I NEVER heard of a Hungarian Jewish physicist or mathematician bullshitter. I certainly heard of a professor who said he was able to teach anything, mathematics or language, if he had a 20 minute head start on his students, but he was a very talented Hungarian Jew, as we most or all are.
Regarding Palestinians you have to come and see by yourself that they are not the original inhabitants of this Holy Land. Except the inhabitants of the Judean mountains (Hebron), among them you find red headed, blue eye people, who tell you that they know they are descendants of Jews but now they are Muslims, the rest of the Palestinians are Beduin tribes from Saudi Arabia, Caucasian Muslims transplanted here by the Turkish Empire, and many recent immigrants from Egypt and Syria who came to enjoy the prosperity created from Jewish (and German sects) economic activity as from 1860 on. Some Arab villages in Galilee still use a few Aramaic words, but they are mixed remnants of the original population. That is the truth. All that doesnt mean that they have no human rights or claims on this land, where they live for generations. You cant send the Beduins back to Transjordan, nor the descendants of African slaves (like in Jisser Al Zarqa) back to Africa.
Weird response, J. I'll give you leeway, since English isn't your first language. Chaldeans aren't mythical. That's not what was meant. Abraham, as a figure from myth, is. There may be some euhemeristic aspect to the story, as with Hercules or Odin, but he is mythical.
I relayed the anecdote about my old landlord to make clear that some people think there's a strain of the wiseguy in the Hungarian Jew. I'd hoped that you fell into that category, with tongue planted in cheek as you usually seem to have, rather than being a true believer in what you were saying. Now I'm not so sure.
Regarding your request to come visit, I have, as I've told you before, been there. One night, sitting with old friends in an apartment in Haifa, a friend of theirs told us a story. His cousin was one of the chief archaeologists at Masada, he said, and he'd told him that exaggerated myths such as it were needed to fuse a disparate people. Everyone nodded their head, understanding.
I, personally, don't care about Zionist or Muslim narratives. My point is that "Palestinians" look a lot more like Chaldeans than Hungarian Jews do.
As for all the interesting people you met or know, you're beginning to sound a little like your nemesis, Taki.
Chaldeans aren't mythical. That's not what was meant. Abraham, as a figure from myth, is.
Dear Friend, Since English is your first language, I'll give you no leeway. Abraham, as figure from myth, is...what? mythical? Is that what you meant? Why Abraham as a Bronze age pastoralist, is so improbable? Is his receiving his marching orders from God mythical? Yet I personally know a perfectly real and intelligent person, formerly called Alberto Hugnu (now he has a Hebrew name), who said to me that he made aliyah because he felt/dreamt the "Lech Lecha". There are many things that one half-believes, without ever examining it, and retracting it when meeting social opposition. But here we are, the Jews, three or four thousand years after, and you have to explain us somehow. You cannot have a people without an explanation. Abraham packing his mules and moving to Hebron is a solid explanation, it have survived thousands of years. You say it is a myth necessary for maintaining a coherent people, just like the Puritans founding their New England settlements. If that makes you feel better, more knowledgable and superior to the common run of the people, who am I to say no?
"If that makes you feel better, more knowledgable and superior to the common run of the people, who am I to say no?"
Come now, J. Isn't that what Judaism is about? Isn't your belief in backdated stories allowing you to feel the same sense of superiority? Aren't most people's personalities rooted in feeling superior?
The tales of Abraham and Moses were written no earlier than the 8th century BCE, and that's stretching it. Oral traditions are anyone's guess. Many believe, quite simply, that "Die Gestalt Abrahams ist eine mythische Schopfung," as Beltz says. I am in that camp.
From the way current events are presented on your site, it's clear that you'd have made an excellent Torah redactor. Your scientific skills simply aren't applied to the erected "history" of your people. I understand this. I empathize. Luckily, for those of us interested in historicity unburdened by national myth, there are other Hungarian Jews who do care about scholarship in all fields. A collection of leftist bilge forced down my throat in college, "Orientalism", by the Arab Said, led me to Yitzhaq Goldziher, an excellent academic trained in the German tradition whose views more closely parallel those of scholars today. He really was a fascinating man, and noted the Abrahamic story for what it is.
I know you're a busy man. If you ever find you have leisure time, you should read some writings by the proto-Zionist Michael Astour. Or Finkelstein's and Silberman's "The Bible Unearthed", combining archaeology with the best Wellhausenian scrutiny and scholarship. You may stop believing in the literal existence of the original monotheist named Abram who communicated with a vengeful sky god and sired children at 100. I leave that to evangelical Christians.
As an aside, I find it funny that, in Biblical exegesis, the Jahwist source responsible for most of the Genesis story is known, in shorthand, simply as "J".
My Friend,
I am glad neither of us believes in the literal historicity of the Bible or some other Holy Book. I hope you are not studying Gemara and the convoluted, no, ridiculous explanations our sages invented along the centuries to fill in the holes in the Biblical narrative.
By the way, the pictures of the four girls above are from an Egyptian fresco, it is far from proved that they are "Jews". They could not be the "Four MOthers", which in case of existing, could not be painted of the same age together. Egyptians erased all memory of Israel, or maybe they were so few and unimportant that did not merit painting them on the wall.
Somehow, yet, here you have a 10million strong ethnic group, mostly in Israel and the USA, trying to find its place on Earth. As always, there are several opposite movements of what we should do. Before the war you had Agudeh, Bund, Zionists, REvisionists, Communists, etc. Now you have only the Orthodox, and us, the Zionists, who are in total disarray. You have Reform Jews that are fast dissolving. You have Anti Zionists like Israel Shahak and Ilan Pappe, who went over the enemy and will disappear. I put my hope in a strong Israel. What is your program for the Jewish people in the 21st Century?
I leave that to evangelical Christians.
Thanks!
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