The Bible mentions women going out to dance among the vineyards of Shilo. I have done work in Shilo, they are haredi (ultra-religious) yidn. I wouldnt imagine them kusher maydeleh going out into the fields to dance, yet there they are.
I am glad you visited the place. It has grown. There are such a diversity in the Shomron that you I can define them as some kind of Haredim. Not of the Meah Shoyrim type.
Regarding boys, the question is moot - Haredim or national religious types or whatever. No mixing. No sex.
Jews (even Haredim) are allowed to, even (in the case of Hasidim) enouraged to dance (as long as men and women are not touching), even the biggest Rebbe. There is nothing in Halakha that says life should be joyless and free of all earthly pleasures - we are Jews, not Puritans. It is Christianity, especially Catholicism, that has a sick twisted relationship with sexuality which is either nothing at all or too much with no in between. Why is it that you never see the Pope dancing?
"There is nothing in Halakha that says life should be joyless and free of all earthly pleasures - we are Jews, not Puritans. It is Christianity, especially Catholicism, that has a sick twisted relationship with sexuality which is either nothing at all or too much with no in between."
K,
You are just spouting anti-Catholic bigotry. Catholicism isn't any more restrictive about sexuality than orthodox Judaism is. Both are against premarital sex. As for other earthly pleasures, Catholicism has feast days while Judaism has fast days. It would be case closed right there, but add to that the delicious foods Catholics can eat, compared to miserable Jewish foods like what you are limited to on Passover.
There is no cult of celibacy in Judaism. Rabbis are expected to be fruitful and multiply as much or more than their flock. I would say celibacy is about as restrictive as you can be - priests are expected to be eunuchs with no sex life at all, but they don't even bother castrating them. This is surely a recipe for frustration and hypocrisy. If priests and nuns really had no sex life at all, they would be super-human. Maybe there are a few who can give up all forms of sex entirely but I'd wager that in truth most have some outlet (at a minimum self-gratification). A small percentage (but still adding up to many thousands over the years and across the globe) find gratification by abusing children. Many more must secretly cheat in some way.
Judaism tries to channel human nature towards a good direction (sex in the context of family life and not debauchery) but it does not try to dam it up entirely.
Although the restrictions are relaxed now, Catholicism once had many dietary restrictions - on Fridays, during Lent, etc.
And please find that video of the Pope dancing like a Rebbe.
Catholicism isn't any more restrictive about sexuality than orthodox Judaism is. Both are against premarital sex.
Authentic Judaism does not ban pre-marital sex. It took a bunch of rabbis to come up with that one - because it was banned in Christian Europe.
As for other earthly pleasures, Catholicism has feast days while Judaism has fast days.
There are Jewish feast days and fast days.
It would be case closed right there, but add to that the delicious foods Catholics can eat, compared to miserable Jewish foods like what you are limited to on Passover.
Ivan and K, your little pissing contest reminds me of a joke where a rabbi and a priest are having a drink. "So," says the priest, " I know that pork isn't kosher, but surely you must have tried bacon at least once, just out of curiosity?" "Well," says the rabbi, "there was one time, when I was young..." "Pretty good, eh?" says the priest. "Not bad at all," says the rabbi. "And what about you? Have you ever slept with a woman? Just to see what it was like?" "Well, once, when I was younger," says the priest. The rabbi pauses for a minute and says, "better than bacon, right?"
There are two things to note about celibacy in the Catholic Church. If a man wants to marry and serve as a priest, he can always join the affiliated Byzantine Catholic Church which accepts married priests. The other and more important point is that celibacy was not an invention of the sexually repressed Popes, it is sanctioned by Jesus Himself, Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” Note also that He did not condemn anyone, but pointed to their respective natures in a matter of fact way.
On the issue of the joyless sex life of Christians, no one has as yet found a way around Matthew 5:27-28 You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. except by ignoring it. Jimmy Carter got into some trouble for this in 1976. But things are not as bleak as first appears, we have Salvation by Grace and Salvation by Works, and Jesus fully expects us to fail anyway Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” In the end the Christian's hope is the Grace of God.
B, some more jokes which you may have already heard.
The Christian, James and his Jewish friend Moshe were having the usual arguments about priorities and right and wrong when Moshe blurted out "You Christians took everything from us! Why, even the Ten Commandments ." "We may have taken the Ten Commandments but we sure as hell didn't keep it", James retorted.
The same friends were walking by the local penitentiary as Moshe boasted "Do you know that there are no Jews in this prison". "Why? Is it restricted?" James asked quizically.
Rabbi Moskovitz was renowned all over Poland for his peity and learning. Yet his heart was heavy with a secret grief. One day God decided to favour him with His Presence. Moskovitz sensing the glory of the Shekinnah immediately fell to ground, not daring to look up as he implored "Lord leave me I am a great and unworthy sinner." "Look, Moskovitz if it is the matter of lighting the candle last Saturday yourself, just forget it." "Don't trifle with me Lord! Lord You know my son has left the ancient faith and has become a Christian. It has left me heartbroken." "I know Moskovitz, My Son did the same thing and I'm still here."
"and then there are those who pretend to be eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and aren't really." - Matthew forgot to write down the 4th category. I've always had a problem with the Grace of God thing. Just as J says, you can go and kill your neighbor's cow and then you confess to the priest and all is right again. Wouldn't it be better not to kill the cow in the first place?
Also the "adultery in the heart" thing opens the door to thought crime. To me there is a difference between window shopping and buying. Common law recognizes that to have a crime you need BOTH mens rea and actus reus - a guilty mind AND a guilty act.
K, is it too much to believe that in the eyes of all-knowing God, thoughtcrime is a crime? There are restrictions on coveting stuff, and coveting is just a thought. The problem with thoughtcrime is when it is persecuted by the government, but God is not the government.
The rabbis have thought about this issue (of course). As always, there are several opinions. There are those that say that mere thought is what is prohibited but others say that it is action (actually doing something about your thoughts) that is the sin. Others (the dominant opinion) strike a reasonable middle ground and say that what is important is that the thought hasn't just briefly flashed thru your head (what healthy male can see a beautiful woman and not have lustful thoughts spring to mind?) but that it has become an idee fixe or an obsession - something that you plot to carry out (in which case later action is merely further proof that plot existed).
The rabbi I heard said that here are several categories of sin: Sin that is between one self and God (such this thought crime or eating in Yom Kippur - the sin involves only oneself and God), and sin that is between one and the community (like eating in Yom Kippur in sight of the community). It is up to God to punish the sins against him, but it is up to the community to punish sins commited in public. There is another kind of sin, which is commited against Ha Aretz, that is against the Holy Land. Let me presume that is an environmental as well a political sin - such as not redeeming the land from the invaders.
The Bible mentions women going out to dance among the vineyards of Shilo. I have done work in Shilo, they are haredi (ultra-religious) yidn. I wouldnt imagine them kusher maydeleh going out into the fields to dance, yet there they are.
16 comments:
There are only girls in this picture. Presumably the boys are in a different field, out of sight.
By the way, unless something has changed in Shilo since I was last there (almost a decade ago), they are not Haredim but national-religious types.
Genius:
I am glad you visited the place. It has grown. There are such a diversity in the Shomron that you I can define them as some kind of Haredim. Not of the Meah Shoyrim type.
Regarding boys, the question is moot - Haredim or national religious types or whatever. No mixing. No sex.
Jews (even Haredim) are allowed to, even (in the case of Hasidim) enouraged to dance (as long as men and women are not touching), even the biggest Rebbe. There is nothing in Halakha that says life should be joyless and free of all earthly pleasures - we are Jews, not Puritans. It is Christianity, especially Catholicism, that has a sick twisted relationship with sexuality which is either nothing at all or too much with no in between. Why is it that you never see the Pope dancing?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7227361849112575918#
K
Catholics may not be as great dancers as the Baptists brethren or Jewish shakers but we have the prettier girls.
"There is nothing in Halakha that says life should be joyless and free of all earthly pleasures - we are Jews, not Puritans. It is Christianity, especially Catholicism, that has a sick twisted relationship with sexuality which is either nothing at all or too much with no in between."
K,
You are just spouting anti-Catholic bigotry. Catholicism isn't any more restrictive about sexuality than orthodox Judaism is. Both are against premarital sex. As for other earthly pleasures, Catholicism has feast days while Judaism has fast days. It would be case closed right there, but add to that the delicious foods Catholics can eat, compared to miserable Jewish foods like what you are limited to on Passover.
There is no cult of celibacy in Judaism. Rabbis are expected to be fruitful and multiply as much or more than their flock. I would say celibacy is about as restrictive as you can be - priests are expected to be eunuchs with no sex life at all, but they don't even bother castrating them. This is surely a recipe for frustration and hypocrisy. If priests and nuns really had no sex life at all, they would be super-human. Maybe there are a few who can give up all forms of sex entirely but I'd wager that in truth most have some outlet (at a minimum self-gratification). A small percentage (but still adding up to many thousands over the years and across the globe) find gratification by abusing children. Many more must secretly cheat in some way.
Judaism tries to channel human nature towards a good direction (sex in the context of family life and not debauchery) but it does not try to dam it up entirely.
Although the restrictions are relaxed now, Catholicism once had many dietary restrictions - on Fridays, during Lent, etc.
And please find that video of the Pope dancing like a Rebbe.
K
Catholicism isn't any more restrictive about sexuality than orthodox Judaism is. Both are against premarital sex.
Authentic Judaism does not ban pre-marital sex. It took a bunch of rabbis to come up with that one - because it was banned in Christian Europe.
As for other earthly pleasures, Catholicism has feast days while Judaism has fast days.
There are Jewish feast days and fast days.
It would be case closed right there, but add to that the delicious foods Catholics can eat, compared to miserable Jewish foods like what you are limited to on Passover.
Catholics definitely have some excellent food.
Ivan and K, your little pissing contest reminds me of a joke where a rabbi and a priest are having a drink. "So," says the priest, " I know that pork isn't kosher, but surely you must have tried bacon at least once, just out of curiosity?" "Well," says the rabbi, "there was one time, when I was young..." "Pretty good, eh?" says the priest. "Not bad at all," says the rabbi. "And what about you? Have you ever slept with a woman? Just to see what it was like?" "Well, once, when I was younger," says the priest. The rabbi pauses for a minute and says, "better than bacon, right?"
There are two things to note about celibacy in the Catholic Church. If a man wants to marry and serve as a priest, he can always join the affiliated Byzantine Catholic Church which accepts married priests. The other and more important point is that celibacy was not an invention of the sexually repressed Popes, it is sanctioned by Jesus Himself, Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” Note also that He did not condemn anyone, but pointed to their respective natures in a matter of fact way.
On the issue of the joyless sex life of Christians, no one has as yet found a way around Matthew 5:27-28 You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. except by ignoring it. Jimmy Carter got into some trouble for this in 1976. But things are not as bleak as first appears, we have Salvation by Grace and Salvation by Works, and Jesus fully expects us to fail anyway Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” In the end the Christian's hope is the Grace of God.
B, some more jokes which you may have already heard.
The Christian, James and his Jewish friend Moshe were having the usual arguments
about priorities and right and wrong when Moshe blurted out "You Christians took
everything from us! Why, even the Ten Commandments ." "We may have taken the Ten
Commandments but we sure as hell didn't keep it", James retorted.
The same friends were walking by the local penitentiary as Moshe boasted "Do you know
that there are no Jews in this prison". "Why? Is it restricted?" James asked quizically.
Rabbi Moskovitz was renowned all over Poland for his peity and learning. Yet his heart
was heavy with a secret grief. One day God decided to favour him with His Presence.
Moskovitz sensing the glory of the Shekinnah immediately fell to ground, not daring
to look up as he implored "Lord leave me I am a great and unworthy sinner." "Look, Moskovitz
if it is the matter of lighting the candle last Saturday yourself, just forget it." "Don't trifle
with me Lord! Lord You know my son has left the ancient faith and has become a Christian. It has left me heartbroken." "I know Moskovitz, My Son did the same thing and I'm still here."
"and then there are those who pretend to be eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and aren't really." - Matthew forgot to write down the 4th category. I've always had a problem with the Grace of God thing. Just as J says, you can go and kill your neighbor's cow and then you confess to the priest and all is right again. Wouldn't it be better not to kill the cow in the first place?
Also the "adultery in the heart" thing opens the door to thought crime. To me there is a difference between window shopping and buying. Common law recognizes that to have a crime you need BOTH mens rea and actus reus - a guilty mind AND a guilty act.
K
K, is it too much to believe that in the eyes of all-knowing God, thoughtcrime is a crime? There are restrictions on coveting stuff, and coveting is just a thought. The problem with thoughtcrime is when it is persecuted by the government, but God is not the government.
The rabbis have thought about this issue (of course). As always, there are several opinions. There are those that say that mere thought is what is prohibited but others say that it is action (actually doing something about your thoughts) that is the sin. Others (the dominant opinion) strike a reasonable middle ground and say that what is important is that the thought hasn't just briefly flashed thru your head (what healthy male can see a beautiful woman and not have lustful thoughts spring to mind?) but that it has become an idee fixe or an obsession - something that you plot to carry out (in which case later action is merely further proof that plot existed).
www.vbm-torah.org/archive/metho/bavakama/01tachmo.doc
I think the rebbes are wise as usual.
K
The rabbi I heard said that here are several categories of sin: Sin that is between one self and God (such this thought crime or eating in Yom Kippur - the sin involves only oneself and God), and sin that is between one and the community (like eating in Yom Kippur in sight of the community). It is up to God to punish the sins against him, but it is up to the community to punish sins commited in public. There is another kind of sin, which is commited against Ha Aretz, that is against the Holy Land. Let me presume that is an environmental as well a political sin - such as not redeeming the land from the invaders.
I think I am quoting the Rav Kook's teachings. I dont remember who is in charge of punishing the sins commited against The Land.
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