Gafni, from the Religious Party, chairs the Budget Committee. Today he closed down his Committee and will not meet till the Government accepts his principle. Which is: No converts.
Your mother is Jewish and you are a Jew, or not. There are about 500,000 Nordic (Russian) immigrants in Israel whose Jewishness is openly put in doubt. The Army's Rabbinate established a course to convert the immigrant soldiers who wish it. Gafni is sabotaging it. The spirit of Christmas has not descended on him.
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You can't make these things up...
The question is whether the Army's conversion program is really sincere or just a way to maximize "results"?
It's clear from the appearance of the Jews that racial intermixing was not unknown in the past but the social cohesion of the Jews was always maintained. Allowing pro forma conversions of people who have no intent of sincerely practicing Judaism is destructive and Gafni is right to oppose such charades. If being a Jew requires neither blood nor belief what does it require?
K
I would have thought that being there on the ground, and putting your ass on the line in the armed forces, was a good start.
Anon.
That makes you "Israeli" but does it make you "Jewish"? And they are not the same thing.
There are many Jews by birth who are not particularly "Jewish" but I reiterate - if you are not Jewish by birth and not Jewish in practice, in what sense are you Jewish at all?
K
Why would they be there, and not anywhere else, if they didn't seriously wish to be Jewish?
Is this the only exit out of Russia?
And, BTW, I thought (rightly or wrongly) if you converted formally and one presumes with sincerity, you could "become" Jewish, at least in the eyes of the State or the religion. I have known several WASP women who have done this, usually but not always for marriage.
Anon.
That's the question - whether these conversions are sincere and done in the proper way or just formalities rushed thru by the government?
K
From the outside, I would say Judaism is an unusual religion in that it not only is not prosetelysing, it actually seems to be anti-prosetelysing; this adds to the impression it is at heart, a tribal, ie a racial phenomenon. On the other hand, many seem eager to deny this, although I personally have no problem at all with it.
As a racial phenomenon, however, it will not succeed in surviving,since at least the high IQ members seemed to have succumbed to the disease of low fecundity, which is a plague upon the West in general.
Consequently, there appears to be a grave danger in being too picky as to who is and who isn't.
Better to assimilate your Russians; as you point out, a lot of assimilation has gone on in the past. Many Jews are very similar physically to the communities where they lived for generations, this much is obvious.
Maybe the Russians are a net gain.
Anon.
I am sure they are. And they come here decided to be part of the Jewish people. It is revolting how the official religious establishment is embittering their lives. They are in a competition with the Reform and Conservative to show who is more inflexible and extremist.
Do they come to be part of the Jewish people or as economic migrants because conditions are better than in Russia? If economic conditions in Israel were considerably worse than in Russia, would they still come? Don't kind yourself - these are not Zionists.
K
J,
Israel accepts the children of people who have a mother or a father as a Jew, right?
I also believe that the old secular Zionists wanted Israel for the Jews, but not on the basis of religious dogma alone; they wanted a state for themselves and their people. I'd say half-Jews (from the father side) and wanted to become Israeli should be accepted as Jews (if they'd identify as Jews). I mean, why not?
Bah, religious fanaticism of this sort is very narrow-minded. It must give many secular Jews the creeps.
All this talk of do *they* consider themselves Jewish?
If they *are* Jews, *they* don't get to choose what to consider themselves. Those who would blame the Jews for the next depression or war are the determiners of their id, for the critical purposes of survival, the reason for Zionism.
The arrows of antisemitism simply do not point at Russians (& all their posterity) who have no Jewish background, who are just economic migrants seeking a life better than in Russia.
There is something very wrong feeling about what such immigrants are doing. And should the arrows of antisemitism become nocked and cocked back in all their terribleness (inevitable, if the past is a guide), they are probably planning to ditch Israel and *very* loudly reclaim their prior id, to escape the awful shadow which Zionism imperfectly attempts to dispel.
Is their dishonesty or their shortsightedness the bigger of their faults?
ram
And the irony is, I think hard core Jew haters would probably respond to their protest with understanding and release them to focus on "actual" Jews. (I think, I'm not certain.)
ram
ram I think you are selling them short.
They could go anywhere, if they are not Jewish. Israel is not the only country attractive to immigrants.
Anon.
I think Russian immigrants have bought their right to Israel by serving (and dying) in Israel's Defense Forces. Mostly they have no religion (after seventy years of Communist indoctrination they forgot it) and they strive to become part of the Israeli society. The religious parties are risking to create a large group of disaffected people in Israel. Somehow, Jewish fanatics love to create antagonism even where there is none.
I don't understand. Are these Russians really Jews - actually identified by the other Russians back in Russia as such, and they lived with the uncertainties that implied? Or were they never Jewish in any regard, religious background was Russian orthodox turned marxist, etc.?
If the second case, I can understand the Rabbi's complaint. And also, it means the army may be taking people it can't count on when the chips are down for Jews, but not for others, who will perceive an "out" for themselves (and I kind of can't really blame them). They also can't be trusted because they lied about their identity. A policy of allowing such immigration actually selects for Russia's liars!
Of course, serious Jewish converts, well, that's a whole different thing! That's harder than the army, which they'd likely have done in Russia regardless.
ram
It is not just putative Russian Jews who have no religion. Most ordinary Orthodox Russians themselves do not have it either. Communism was very effective in marginalising religion, firstly by destroying the minds of the young and secondly by ruining the credibility of the religious establishment by coopting some of their pliant leaders into the power structure. I read somewhere that the old Soviet Union had a record of sorts in the number of abortions performed, some 200 millions. Had these innocents been allowed to come into the world, the Russians would not now be suffering a demographic crisis of epic proportions. It is not surprising that Russian Jews may be among the most secularised people around.
Yes they lack religion, but I don't think they lack their society's tribal ways in which people categorize people, classless society notwithstanding. Jews are often not liked in Russia, no religion needed. I was wondering who these Russian Israeli converts to Judaism are in this sense.
ram
Btw, I never meant that jewish conversion is tougher than the army, but more like that their inner grain won't resist army service, but it would make conversion very hard unless it's for real.
Some are not Jewish at all, others have a Jewish father, which does not "count" under Jewish law. Most know very little of Judaism or its practices.
K
There is nothing wrong with the Jewish Y chromosome.
Anon.
...Most know very little of Judaism or its practices.
It's "practices?" How about its, er, lifestyle burdens? (ie the grounds for worry that they or their children will be singled out for blame come troubled times. "Pogrom" is a Russian word.) If someone with a Jewish father is considered "other" and "Jew" by the other Russians, well he qualifies to become Israeli because that's what Zionism is for. And that's why non-Jews, and these opportunistic converters, who will never have a second of concern about a pogrom (the only way they'd experience one is if they join one), don't qualify.
Jews are those whose ancestors stubbornly resisted all those pressures to convert time after time. We finally have founded a potential sanctuary (in progress, I realize) from the insecurity and persecution. And it becomes relatively successful, and some non-jewish Russians see it as an opportunity to exploit? Yeccch. It's offensive and dishonest (as well as dangerous for them and their posterity - most people would not consider the sanctuary aspect exactly there just yet. But to them it may be potentially a temporary gig, only stay if all is well. If nothing else, they can always go back to Russia, after all. And they may assume their kids will take a similar relationship with Israel).
Of course, maybe I'm wrong about their motivations. That's what I am wondering about.
ram
I think, on average, you are wrong.
On the other hand, there are plenty of authentic Jews in Israel who refuse to serve in the armed forces.
But they are acceptable to you, I assume?
Anon.
The truth is that whatever they think they are, their kids will be Israeli. That's how it always is with immigrants. My ancestors may have lived for 50 generations in Poland but to me it's a foreign country and the only land I know is America. When I visited Israel it felt like a strange foreign land and I longed for my homeland, America.
K
The true value of these ex-Russians to the Jews, apart from their willingness to serve in the army etc, is that whatever they were (are?) they are not Arab/Palestinian/Muslims and never will be, and so they heavily swing the demographics in a favourable direction.
In this way they help to keep Israel democratic; in the event there was a genuine Palestinian electoral block vote of, say as much as 30+%, combined with the usual anti-Western academic 5th element,and factoring in the usual bickering and fragmentation amongst the Jewish vote, there could be a serious internal existential threat to the Jewish State; and perhaps even the need for mildly embarrassing coups d'etat, from time to time.
So it is short-sighted to antagonize these people. It is better to have 70% of something than 100% of nothing.
Anon.
But they are acceptable to you, I assume?
There's no sense of I am accepting or not - as if wishing to regulate membership in some club.
When antisemitism rears its periodically obsessed head, are they looking down its barrel? That's who Israel is for.
If the immigrant is not jewish, they certainly must understand the purpose of the institution, and it is an institution, not just a location or a society. I'm inclined to welcome anyone who respects that this is critical. There's something really wrong about the *pretend jewish* russian immigrants I've heard about. Like a contrived totally bogus asylum claim to jump to the front of the immigration queue of US or EU. Asylum is an important institution, don't corrupt it.
Of course Israel is also home to a million Muslims and others. And I'm happy to have some others of good will who support the primary purpose. I don't know if this Gafni is just dogmatic about religious law, or if he sees them as mercenaries who don't share in the vertigo from the threat that makes that army necessary.
On the other hand, there are plenty of authentic Jews in Israel who refuse to serve in the armed forces. But they are acceptable to you, I assume?
The Yeshiva types are fine, but the lefty peace now types I'd really resent defending. I'd still defend them, though. Probably.
ram
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