Der Spiegel reports on an article by a leading member of Hungary's governing FIDESZ party:
"A significant part of the Roma are unfit for coexistence. They are not fit to live among people. These Roma are animals, and they behave like animals. When they meet with resistance, they commit murder. They are incapable of human communication. Inarticulate sounds pour out of their bestial skulls. At the same time, these Gypsies understand how to exploit the 'achievements' of the idiotic Western world. But one must retaliate rather than tolerate. These animals shouldn't be allowed to exist. In no way. That needs to be solved -- immediately and regardless of the method."
The ghost of genocyde haunts the minds of Hungarians. Not as regrettable past, but as a project with high priority. Good we left Hungary. Ill.: Karvallott cigany (Poor gypsy)/
55 comments:
If not for the current German influence, Hungarians would be beating gypsies to death. They know how to do it.
I have the impression Hungarians were a different people before Trainon... at least I hope they were.
The gypsies are out-breading them anyway, like the Kurds are out-breading the Turks, and therefore will inherit the land.
I feel as if the Germans really learned something from the war. The Hungarians learned nothing.
K
Russian occupation and subsequent Stalinist regime were too soft in Hungary. That was the inborn defect of Hungarian Communist from Bela Kun and Szamuely on - they were soft intellectuals and had no stomach for Stalin's Asiatic brutality.
May be the defect is in the Hungarian psyche. The Red Army strategy on River Don battle during WWII was to attack first the Axis allies, that is Italians, Rumanians, Hungarians and only last the Germans. to their surprise, the aliies retired before actual crossing the Don. I dont think the Italians or the Rumanians are proud of their heroic retreat, but you can find on Youtube dozens of Hungarian patriotic documentaries of the heroic retreat under the heavy snow and difficult roads. in the films, no actual fighting appears to have taken place. What other nation shows proudly its retreat from the enemy? seventy years later? Should I have grown up in Hungary, I'd be like them, probably.
J, but that's cherry picking now, Roma are disliked everywhere, even in Germany. Here in Slovenia for example, 90% of male gypsies have a police record. It's similar elsewhere, "polizeibekannt" and roma, or Lebanese, or anything like that goes hand in hand, like beer and pretzels.
It's so bad we almost wish Jews back, what a bad trade minority wise that was...
The Roma used to train their little ones to go door to door, enter open doors and steal money or anything shiny, because they couldn't be arrested, a neighbor came home once finding some in his kitchen.
It's been what, 100 years, and all across Europe there's DE-facto voluntary apartheid with gypsies.
Slovenia,
The Gypsies are admittedly hard to love, but I think (hope) that we can agree that they are our fellow human beings (however degraded) and cannot be slaughtered like animals, which appears to be FIDESZ's proposed solution.
K
The policy of multiculturalism and cultural sensitivity should be abandoned. That doesn't mean genocide. Rather, that Slovenian culture should be allowed to reign in Slovenia and Hungarian culture in Hungary. Those who wish to live there, including the Roma, should be pressured to assimilate. This can work. After all, European Jews were capable of this.
Oy, Slovenia, you have a lot of things backwards. First of all, the Jews didn't need to be "pressured" to assimilate, they needed to be PERMITTED (by the goyim) to assimilate. When they tried to do "European" assimilationist type things like attend university, they were kept out. Second, there never was a unitary "Hungarian" or "Slovenian" culture, at least not until the ethnic cleansings of the 20th century. These countries were always multi-cultural, in a good sense, of many different groups living side by side in a symbiotic relationship. Even the Gypsies performed valuable services as tinkers repairing pots, as musicians at celebrations, etc. "Multi-cultural" in the post-modern sense of double standards that license anti-social behavior is of course something else and should not be permitted.
People (including Gypsies) respond to incentives, positive and negative. If the Gypsies are living a life of crime, it must be more attractive to them than mainstream life. You need both the carrot and the stick. On the one hand, the laws must be properly structured and strictly and uniformly enforced, so that crime does not pay. On the other hand, Gypsies who want to learn a legitimate trade and integrate into the mainstream society must be given equal opportunity to do so and at the same time be permitted to retain the non-criminal aspects of their culture (e.g. music).
K
The Orthodox Jews in Polish shtetls did not want to assimilate until the influence of Haskalah had made itself felt. I think you underestimate just how insular and backward our ancestors were 300 years ago.
I don't disagree K, there is a weird equilibrium, the no question asked welfare checks and so on.
My point is that we are kicking the can down the road, and the further it goes, the more racist any measure will appear, thus making any move impossible or unpleasant.
While Zsolt Bayer clearly has ties to FIDESZ, he is definitely not a leading member of FIDESZ. As far as I know he currently holds no position in FIDESZ. And for his often rather extreme articles he is not even in the mainstream.
To gauge the opinion of FIDESZ one should probably read Heti Válasz and Magyar Nemzet, not Magyar Hírlap, in which the article was published.
http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/ki-ne-legyen
By the way. The Spiegel article contains translated sentences after each other as if they were next to each other in the original. Well, there is about half the article between
"But one must retaliate rather than tolerate"
and "These animals shouldn't be allowed to exist"
Besides, "these animals" (probably the animals would be a better translation) refers to those, who stabbed, killed and committed similar crimes, not generally to gypsies. But honest translation is not something one should expect from the spiegel.
Between the proposals to transform the Roma into the Swiss and the chestbeating about our imaginary fiddler on the roof ancestors, I got a kick out of the comments.
The Roma probably can't be transformed into the Swiss, but the Slovenians and Hungarians aren't at the level of the Swiss either. Let's set a lower threshold. Would you agree that with the right combination of carrots and sticks that they can at least become more law-abiding?
Same thing in the US re: blacks. People think that black illegitimacy has always been there, but the black illegitimacy rate went from 20% to 80% during the last 50 years. Did blacks change their nature during this period or did the societal incentives and disincentives change?
K
Anon and K,
The Roma were actually better integrated and assimilated during the socialist era. The problem is, one can hardly employ people whose productivity is generally below the minimum wage in a free market. In the socialist one it was obviously not a relevant factor. In a more or less liberal democratic country the police can not force people to work, as it was wont in the socialist era.
It seems to me that freedom has the consequence that anyone can more freely converge to the state he naturally prefers and/or is capable of maintaining. In other words gypsies or blacks in the USA can only be better assimilated at the price of their freedom. Any attempt of the current Hungarian government to improve the station of gypsies at the price of their freedom was met with outrage from western countries...
Clearly, the liberal solutions did not solve anything, only made the situation worse.
Would you agree that with the right combination of carrots and sticks that they can at least become more law-abiding?
Sure, but whenever one would mention sticks - in this case not tolerating gypsies stabbing people as part of their new year's eve celebration - one is called an evil racist.
P.S. Please do not take this as a defence of Zsolt Bayer. I am really not fond of him, but the spiegel article (like most MSM reports) is dishonest, and the prescribed liberal solutions are making things worse.
I dont think gypsies were better integrated under socialism, but better policed. And there is the issue of quantity becoming quality: gypsies were a very small minority (1 - 2%) but now they have grown to something 10% of an older majority population. Hungarian houses in the villages were defended by hordes of dogs, no gipsy child would dare to intrude.
About Bayer, you Csaba is right that he was taking about individuals and not in general, but that is ambiguous. And Hungarian is a difficult language to translate...
J,
I would defend my claim that they were better integrated and assimilated. Sure, it was the result of policies enforced by the police that would be considered racist now. (And you are absolutely right about better policing. One of the most general complaint these days is that the police does not enforce the law against the often under-age thieves.)
My reasons:
Due to the better policing children were actually forced to go to school - they could not skip. Their parents had jobs (since having a job was compulsory for everyone), as a consequence they were part of the society even if were a bit marginal.
Now, many children are living in families in which nobody had a job in the last 20 years. (It is not uncommon as the employment rate of gypsies is no more than 20%.) The only way of making a living they see is collecting welfare and occasionally stealing.
Also, as a reaction to the increased criminality of gypsies the hungarian population became more suspicious and prejudiced (or postjudiced if you like).
So considering all above the divide between gypsies and non-gypsies became larger in the last two decades. They used to be a small, peculiar and somewhat marginal minority. As their numbers soared they often constitute the majority of many north-eastern villages (there is white flight in Hungary, but it is from certain villages and not from cities) and have much less contact with Hungarians than they used to.
>Would you agree that with the right combination of carrots and sticks that they can at least become more law-abiding?
That is like asking about the respiratory rate of a spherical horse in a vacuum. The question is meaningless without other questions: how much would these carrots and sticks cost? How much would a "more law-abiding" population of gypsies contribute to the economy vs. what it contributes now? How much would India take to accept Roma repatriation en masse?
I do remember the gypsies in the fifties in Hungary, as I spent my summer vacations with a German family in Pilisborosjeno and their family had been exiled to the ciganysor - the outer end of the village where lived the gypsies. First of all, everybody had to work. True. Second, children went to school. True. Hungarian gypsies had been decimated by Eichmann, many - I remember - had the blue tattoo in their forearm as my mother but different letters. They were very quiet then. They also were useful, they repaired tin pans and so. Those were harsh times, hunger and no unemployment benefits, specially not in the countryside. But I think that the real problem is numeric - Hungarians became older and fewer, while the gypsies multiplied and their average age is much younger. Hungarian villages are full of old folks, they are helpless against aggressive youngsters.
The gypsies weren't decimated by the Nazi's like the Jews were, in many parts of Europe they were virtually untouched. However in saying that, the Gypsies are a model that the Jews should have followed. Since WW2 they have grown and grown, while European Jews are a generation or two away from becoming folklore.
They gypsies' lives are suffering in poverty and ignorance. In no way are they to be emulated. Better to live a comfortable middle class life and end up as "folklore" than to live like the gypsies. No one meets his distant descendants anyway.
B,
Then what general kind of solution (laissez faire, strict policing, formal legal apartheid, limited sterilization, Nazi-style genocide) would you propose to the gypsy problem? Based on Mr. Bayer's statements, there is some desire on the part of native Hungarians to rein in gypsy dysfunction. It's doubtful that they have a budget target in mind, though.
Look at J's family - they are long gone from Europe but doing very well in Israel. Meanwhile the gypsies of Pilisborojeno are surely still there in their godforsaken village living miserable lives. Their numbers have increased greatly due to their high birth rate, but that just means that there are more of them to be miserable.
K
Based on my experience dealing with East European Gypsies, I would not want them living anywhere near me, and would probably prefer it if they were kicked back to India if I were a Hungarian. In the event that this wasn't possible, I think that since they live communally, communal responsibility would be in order.
Can't speak for the gypsies but the poverty-stricken, 10 kids a family, Ultra-orthodox Jews are far from miserable. They are very content. The miserable Jews are the self-loathing, left wing, 1 child a family, "intellectual" types.
Had the Shoah not occurred I wonder if the Satmar would still be living in Hungary in their villages. They certainly weren't about to fade away like the Budapest Jews have.
News to me that most secular Jews with few or no children are miserable. I don't find the experience of being a childless secular Jew miserable, but I would be an unhappy misfit in the black-hat Orthodox environment. The cacophony of a household with ten kids would probably be hell on earth for someone who prefers order and quiet.
" prefer it if they were kicked back to India if I were a Hungarian..."
This is sick and dangerous kind of thinking. The gypsies have been in Europe for almost as long as the Jews. You can't go "back" to somewhere you've never been and that no one in your family has been for 1000 years. The Gypsies and the Jews have as much right to live in Europe as anyone else.
K
Why is it sick and dangerous? Nobody has the "right" to live anywhere, except insofar as they conquer it. Saying that the gypsies have the right to live in Hungary is tantamount to saying that the Hungarians have the obligation to deal with their depredations. The gypsies like their culture, they don't like working and learning and acting European, well, fine. Go somewhere that is the behavioral standard.
Incidentally, I don't think that the Jews have a "right" to live in Hungary, Poland or Pennsylvania, either.
>You can't go "back" to somewhere you've never been and that no one in your family has been for 1000 years.
That's what I just did-no problem.
> I don't find the experience of being a childless secular Jew miserable,
Yes, being a lonely involuntary celibate who not only lacks an overarching meaning to his existence but doesn't believe in the possibility of such a meaning-that certainly sounds like lots of fun. Can I buy a ticket too?
Sure. I think you'll like the food.
News to me that most secular Jews with few or no children are miserable
LEFT WING/FAR LEFT secular Jews, you can find them at your local university.
These guys on the S-H-I-T list. Unhappy people.
http://www.masada2000.org/list-A.html
I'll grant that the people on the list are left wing and nuts, but not all of them are truly secular (plenty of rabbis on the list).
Gypsies were considered Arians that is Superman material, although degenerated, and were not included in the Holocaust. But once the mechanism was operative, it needed to be fed and Jews were getting scarse. Hungarian Gypsies were mass deported to Auschwitz but by then the gas chambers were being dismounted. I dont know the numbers, but my mother told me there was a ciganylager at Auschwitz, a camp for Gypsies, and they too were waiting for their turn to be exterminated and only the gong saved them.
Regarding Szatmar Jews, I think that if not for the Holocaust, they would have become secular like the rest of Hungarian Jewry. The process was well advanced in the thirties, the Transylvanian cities like Arad were fully secular, and only pockets of Hassidic Jews remained in the villages. The tremendous shock of the Holocaust made some of them close ranks and become more extreme. I think that also the Polish Jewry was largely secular by 1930s.
"Nobody has the "right" to live anywhere, except insofar as they conquer it."
So if the Germans had been able to hold onto Poland, they would have been "right"?
"Saying that the gypsies have the right to live in Hungary is tantamount to saying that the Hungarians have the obligation to deal with their depredations."
"The gypsies" (and the Jews) don't have collective responsibility for each other's actions. Each individual Hungarian of Romani descent is as much a citizen of Hungary as any other "Hungarian" (who by the way whose ancestors didn't show up in the neighborhood much earlier than the gypsies). The government of Hungary does have a obligation to enforce its laws (and to provide services such as education) to each of its individual citizens, "Hungarian", Jewish and Romani. To think otherwise leads you back to collective guilt and responsibility and ultimately (and in not too many steps) back to Auschwitz.
You didn't go "back" to anywhere, except in your imagination. The piece of land where you now sit has been there forever and dozens of different tribes and empires have occupied it at one time or another. For a few centuries, 2,000 years ago it was occupied by the tribe of Judah. Religious Jews always gave lip service to returning to Jerusalem, but no one really took this seriously as a commandment to raise an army and conquer the territory in their lifetime. No one, not the holiest rabbis (and this never would have happened except for a bunch of atheist socialists). Because of the idiotic narrow nationalism of type that you play into, the Jews were compelled to play the nationalism game too and claim some territory of their own and rightly so, since it was amply clear that they were no longer safe in Europe (never mind that they are not exactly safe in Israel either), but don't conflate Torah Judaism with modern Zionism - you can have one without the other and vice versa.
One of the things that I love about America is that except for a few idiotic WNs who have zero power or respectability, no one claims that they are more "American" than any other American. Obama is a detestable leftist idiot but it says something about America that we were willing to elect the son of a foreigner with a funny name and not question whether he was "American" enough.
K
Based on my experience dealing with East European Gypsies, I would not want them living anywhere near me,
How do Roma compare to American blacks?
Obama is a detestable leftist idiot but it says something about America that we were willing to elect the son of a foreigner with a funny name
It says America is suicidal.
And yes some Americans are more Americans than others. Ignoring reality will only lead to a harsher definition of American when the backlash comes.
Which ones are "more American", especially now that whites are well on the way to being a minority? Are Norwegians who came in the late 19th century "more American" than German Jews whose family came in the mid? Are Irish Catholics American enough? Italians? Only the members of the Mayflower Society and the Daughters of the American Revolution? What if you are a mischling and only 1 of your grandmothers belonged to the DAR and the other was say a WWII war bride from France... are you American enough? Or are white (Protestant) Christians automatically OK even if you just arrived from Lichtenstein last week? What if you are Tejano Hispanic so that your ancestors were there before the white people showed up? Who gets to decide?
K
Ave,
Why then ""America"" have African Americans,Asian Americans,Latin Americans etc... if all are Americans, why you separate? We have or we don't have HBD! Ist it bad or good, if it's bad then lets create one world language,one country one "look" person!
A salad, not a melting pot.
K
Which ones are "more American",
Whites are the real Americans.
Come on, do you honestly feel inside a Pakistani immigrant is as American as you and your family? Don't lie to yourself.
Not being a labrador retriever, I am not primarily motivated by food (or pussy.) However, in the interest of accuracy, I'll say that I've eaten plenty of treif food. Lots of it was good. But kosher food cooked well is just as good. Of course, if I was a fetishist that could not experience true joy without eating e.g. live tadpoles dipped in horse blood, kashrut would weigh heavily on me.
>So if the Germans had been able to hold onto Poland
If grandma had had a big old hairy dick, she would have been grandpa. If the seven nations had successfully fought us off...if.
>"The gypsies" (and the Jews) don't have collective responsibility for each other's actions.
Not what Judaism says. Also not how it works in any traditional society.
>Each individual Hungarian of Romani descent is as much a citizen of Hungary
But this is hardly an obvious proposition, independent of the last 2 centuries' dominant ideology.
>The government of Hungary does have a obligation to enforce its laws (and to provide services such as education)
Says who? Where does this obligation exist? Does it come from Sinai, or from first principles? Is it experimentally verifiable? Or is it just a fairly popular assumption propagated by a system which seeks to deracinate everyone, destroy all social organization standing between the individual and the state, and strip everyone down to an alienated, atomized subject?
Have you read Jouvenel?
>To think otherwise leads you back to collective guilt and responsibility and ultimately (and in not too many steps) back to Auschwitz.
Dogs are evil. Hitler loved dogs, so to think that dogs are not evil makes you Hitler.
>don't conflate Torah Judaism with modern Zionism - you can have one without the other and vice versa.
Not stably. Ask your European ancestors. And it is ludicrous to say that living in Israel is incidental to Torah-the commandments to conquer the land and dwell in the land are eternal and binding (see Ramban.)
>no one claims that they are more "American" than any other American.
Oh, no, that would be far too honest. They compete to see who is LESS American.
>it says something about America that we were willing to elect the son of a foreigner with a funny name and not question whether he was "American" enough.
Yes, it says many Americans are fucking idiots, their system is rife with corruption (see the state senator from Maine forced to crawl around and beg forgiveness for pointing out that buses full of black people showed up to lily-white moose towns and voted for O,) that if necessary, America would elect Obama's dog president, and that the whole thing is heading somewhere bad fast.
Come on, do you honestly feel inside a Pakistani immigrant is as American as you and your family? Don't lie to yourself.
Yes, I do.
K
Yes, I do.
So if one of your children married a Pakistani you'd have no objections. They are after all as good as you.
A Pakistani Jew, sure, no problem :-}
K
And what of a Pakistani MUSLIM? Your fatherly chest will swell with pride as it would with any other American since they are equally American as the Jews, English, and Somali. Wouldn't you?
Well, then it's no big tragedy if one group of Americans gets replaced by another, more fecund one, which turns it into a replica of their mother country (can I even say that?) complete with giant burning landfills and raw sewage running everywhere. Long live Congolese America!
Regarding the Roma, it's interesting to note that they left India to escape the Muslims. It's been a hard road (ie nomadic wandering), but they evaded forced Islamization. However Muslims may be catching up again with them soon in Europe. I hope Europeans will manage a stronger response to that force than India's peoples did. Signs are ambiguous so far.
rm
Oh, I doubt that, since they went WEST, and there are plenty in the Middle East, Turkey, and other Muslim countries.
If you do immigration right (and we haven't, lately) you turn foreigners into Americans, not America into a foreign country. It worked this way for a couple of hundred years and the "natives" (who were really last generations's immigrants) complained that the foreigners were going to ruin the place the whole time.
K
I understand K's point but Gypsies are not the best immigrant material for America. In fact, according to some Slovak data, most are cognitively challenged (may I say dumb?) and sent to special schools. Remember the Phillistine king's answer to David's request of political refugee status: "Dont I have enough imbeciles already that I should invite you?"
One of my wife's cousin's offspring married a beautiful Nigerian girl, who is as black as coal. She has been well accepted in the family and seems to be a lovely person. Surprisingly, once you get to know strange people from other races, they are actually just your fellow human beings most of the time.
When my mother was in Siberia, someone journeyed a long distance to see her, since she had never seen a Jew, and she asked to rub her head to feel for the horns. She expressed her surprise and pleasure that Jews actually appeared to be human.
K
Ah, Progressivism, always the same, always fresh.
K, I am sure they would have travelled even further to touch an actual, real, Nigerian beauty!
My father said that when he lived in Poland, he saw a black person only once, with a traveling circus, and that people rubbed his skin to see if the color would come off.
K
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